I'm hearing both of you guys saying that the thing, one of the biggest obstacles in your life or one of the most challenging things you came up against the death of a daughter or an alcohol issue that God took both of those things, which could have taken you totally out of the game. And instead, did the opposite of gave you a burden to say, man, what if I took what I've gone through here and help others navigate these difficult things? I mean, what a great motivator, really, really. Hey, welcome back to dwell on these things. Today we have an interesting episode featuring two successfully retired men, Bob and Randy host Brad Oatney is staring down retirement himself and is seeking wisdom on what the next season looks like for him. He asks the question, what does it look like to retire? Well, and how do we create not just a financial retirement plan, but ultimately a purpose retirement plan, Randy and Bob share practical and spiritual wisdom on retiring successfully, along with some remarkable stories of how God used their suffering and scars to serve and love the people around them. We recorded this conversation at friendship village in Dublin, Ohio, and we hope you enjoy it. Here's Brad Oatney, Randy Jones, and Bob Graham. Well, we want to thank you for tuning into another episode of dwell on these things. My name is Brad Oatney and today we're going to be talking about the topic of retirement, the daunting topic of retirement. And certainly we're blessed to have two gentlemen with me today that we're going to be having a discussion about this, who the word on the street says they have done this well. And I'm hoping that we can glean some wisdom from what they've done, the choices they've done, the they've made and just basically how they chose to see God's view of retirement compared to what maybe the world has to say about that. So I'm going to be joined here with Bob Graham and Randy Jones. So we're going to let me sort of set the stage a little bit. I mean, this whole thing about retirement. So full disclosure, I'm kind of looking down the barrels of retirement coming up here for me. So I'm trying to figure out, you know, what do you do? You've been working hard. You've been going hard in the paint for 20, 30. For me, I've been seeing patients, I'm an optometrist for 40 years and the last 15 have been part time. But you know, how do you, how does a guy or a gal get to this point and make that shift, that transition from all the responsibilities of work and sort of thinking through and processing through, you know, things like, you know, how's that going to affect my identity, my energy level? You know, what am I going to do with free time? Am I going to have too much free time? What does God have to say about retirement? So that's Bob chuckling back there. Yeah. So I think it was in for a real treat here to try to just see how these guys have navigated this and see if we can glean some wisdom for ourselves. And I did try retiring sort of. It was a lame attempt at retirement and I think 2019 lasted a very short time because I really hadn't thought through what, what am I going to do? How's this going to change? And so, yeah, I think it would be amazing to think about this transition of retirement. Ahead of time and maybe start thinking it through. And so when we get there, we're like, Oh yeah, I have kind of thought this through. I've been talking to a lot of patients about, they keep asking me, Hey, when you're retiring and it's basically a daily conversation when people come in now, cause I know certainly I can't make it much longer. But I asked the folks who are retired, you know, well, what's it like? You know, give me some, give me some insights. I've gotten everything like, you know, every day is Saturday and you know, I just do what I want when I want. And I said, but what one guy's like, but what do you really do? And he's like, you know, really not a lot, just kind of whatever I want. And that started kind of scaring me. I think we spend a lot of time doing things like coming up with a retirement sort of savings plan. But what occurred to me in the last six months is how many folks getting ready to retire have a retirement purpose plan. So I'm hoping that we can kind of discuss that a little bit. So I guess sort of to set the stage just a little bit more, I went to the Bible and I was like, well, you know, what's the Bible really? It's gotta be full of giving us some descriptors and prescriptors of how to retire and come to find out. Basically I only found like Numbers chapter eight, like three verses where the Levites would be taught. They talked about working from when they're 25 and then when they're 50 they kind of stepped down from the heavy lifting of the Tapperneckle work, but they didn't leave. They sort of stayed on as mentors. They sort of assisted the next generation. So the scripture never really gives us this concept of retiring from purpose, only maybe a shift in role. So with thinking about that and where you guys have kind of come from, why don't you guys introduce yourselves and tell us the audience how long you've been retired and let's sort of kick some of these things around. Well, I'm Bob Graham and I came to this church when it was in a warehouse years ago and I've given a lot of thought to retirement. I'm 91 now and my work career ended because of a corporate takeover back in 1984, I think it was. And so I've been retired a long time and this is a great topic to come up with and I'm going to be delighted to contribute here and a real pleasure to meet everybody here. Yeah, I'm Randy Jones. I retired in 1998 and a lot of mystery at that point in my mind that whether I wanted to actually retire that early, which fortunately I was able to or continue working and I got some good advice from a good friend and really changed my whole view of what a new purpose could be. What, uh, don't leave me on this cliffhanger. Give me some more details on this advice. Well, a good friend of mine, uh, Wayne Tularsic, which many people know, I'm sure, uh, when, uh, similar to Bob, the company I worked for was going through a, uh, a merger and there was a handful of us that had an opportunity to leave early because I was only 50 years old. And, uh, so I was in Wayne and Rosie's home church at the time and Wayne and I got along very well and good friendship. So I went to him when I was, uh, contemplating what to do and I wanted to get his advice and, uh, he listened intently and about all my concerns and, uh, whether it would be wise to leave this early. What would I do? You know, uh, I could have stayed with the company, but you know, these opportunities only come around once probably if ever in a lifetime. So he listened very intently and he looked at me and he said, well, for asking me what I would do, uh, you might want to consider retiring cause I think God probably has more for you to do. And I took his advice and he was right by the way. Wow. I can't wait to, uh, hear this. Uh, we'll we'll tease this out some more. How about you, Bob? How did you, uh, navigate the, uh, the early beginnings or contemplating it? I tried, uh, I tried consulting a couple of companies because I wasn't sure what I was going to do. Uh, but the, the biggest thing I did was make a decision that, that I had joined the church. I had gone along with the home churches. I had done the things I thought were right to do and participated and, but I hadn't really given it. I really hadn't committed total life to the church and to the, to God. And I didn't realize it until then, until this subject came up and I'm sitting there on the fence of work or not working. Uh, I had not faced that thing. I had not had to face it before. And what happened was I realized I have a lot of places I've, I've been weak in serving Christ and serving the Lord. And I want to go look at that again. And I want to get into it. I want to see where it would be. If I'm out there working, I can't do it. And I'm in a position where I can retire and play around maybe out there with some money, but I, I, but I can make a living and I can give it all to God and I can hang my head on, on his hat peg. And that's what I tried to do. And I've been trying to do that ever since that happened. And I'll tell you the change in my life when that, when I made that decision, the change in my life has been so incredibly astute and sharp. And, uh, my family doesn't even recognize me from that point on. It was, it was an incredible experience because I thank God heard my cry and let me in and let me all the way in. And, uh, it was just great. I mean, how old are you about, I could go on and on about, about my lifestyle and people in my life and how they changed because I changed. Uh, and how, how important it was that I made that decision instead of a different one. Yeah. So this is, this is fascinating to me. So what do you think it is when people are, you know, like the first, when I think about, you know, the, the phases or seasons of life, you know, you've, you know, you've got that early sort of building phase where you're, you know, raising kids and they, you know, all the, all that goes along with that. And, you know, you're trying to save up to one day, maybe you could retire and you've got all these other moving parts and you finally sort of get towards close to this retirement. It sounds like for both of you guys, uh, it was almost maybe a, I don't know if I'd call it a blessing, but certainly it's interesting. Like sometimes we just live at the speed of light that you don't have time to sort of pump the brakes a little bit and say, you know, what am I doing and where am I going and what's next? I mean, it sounds like I'm kind of hearing that, right? Yeah. It's really, uh, I mean, my experience was it was really kind of stepping out into the unknown. You know, I, I knew that, uh, similar to Bob, you know, I felt this urge to get more involved and certainly by retiring gave me that opportunity, uh, more time, but I had no idea what God had in store. Uh, we were fairly new. My wife and I were fairly new home church leaders. So we were getting a taste of, you know, getting more involved in a church and more involved with, uh, different people with different lifestyles and different interests. And I found that kind of exciting. And, uh, probably my biggest transition during that time was, uh, you know, trying to figure out what my new identity was. Cause I was coming off, uh, you know, 30 years of, uh, you know, making decisions every day and manage a lot of people and, uh, kind of being, you know, a, a go-to person in the, uh, corporation and, uh, uh, all of a sudden that's gone. So I'm thinking, okay, well, I'm part of this home church of about 40 people and, uh, I'm afraid it took me a while to, you know, relinquish some of the, uh, control factors, I should say, of what my career was, but God kept showing me, you know, ways to do that. And, uh, I really got into a habit of just coming to him with these issues and, you know, asking the proverbial question, uh, what would you do? What would Jesus do? Uh, and that, that was a real, uh, benefit for, for me, but probably the, probably one of the more pivotal moments was when, uh, when, uh, our daughter, our daughter died, uh, in 2008. And of course I was retired. I was getting more and more involved in the church and with other people. And I thought that gave me a kind of an entitlement that my family was going to be protected. And our daughter got diagnosed with cancer. And, uh, so I was pretty confident God was gonna heal her. At least what I thought was healing. And, uh, that didn't happen, but I was with her when, uh, she died. And, uh, I remember this pivotal moment where, uh, I saw her take her last breath. And I knew at that point that God in fact did heal her because he took her home with him with her. And, uh, that just really reinforced my, my faith and confidence even more. And I wanted to get more and more involved. And that led to some ministries and some other things that have come along the line there. Wow. That's, uh, that's incredible, Randy. It was a tough time. Yeah. You guys were friends back then? Well, I wasn't in his home church, but I, we were close. Yeah. Right. We were very close because her husband was our leader and, uh, I don't think I realized that. So we, uh, so we, we, uh, we all did what you just did when you heard that news. Right. Yeah. I don't know if I knew that. Um, so, um, so I guess thinking back when you're, you know, it sounds like you guys are talking about something like, how do I repurpose the scars that I've gotten throughout living and the wisdom that God's given me throughout my life and the skills he's given me and, uh, abilities and the talents he's given me, the relationships and the resources like, did you, when did you kind of start getting this inkling of maybe God wants to repurpose all these things for his benefit in retirement? Was that kind of a slow, you know, was it more when the guys talked to you or did you start thinking, huh, uh, boy, maybe I can use some of these, this skillset that I've been blessed with to teach the Bible or, you know, repurpose these things that God blessed us with for his, uh, serving him and serving others. Yeah. I think that's, uh, clearly what happened, you know, with me and I, and it was kind of an evolving, uh, process, uh, that as I look back, you know, it was more of a case of, uh, really going to God and saying, okay, what, well, what is it you want me to do? Yeah. And can you give me some opportunities? Can you give me some insights? And certainly I had the input of some good friends like Wayne and, uh, uh, some other folks that I was close to in our, uh, in the church. And, uh, that kind of gave me, uh, you know, a lot of, uh, enthusiasm and, uh, excitement on what God might have in mind for me. But I re I remember, uh, I guess it was a teaching at CT or something that somebody said that there's a, uh, you know, as a Christian, you're really making two decisions. You're making the first decision to ask Christ into your life and take charge. But I think there is a lot of truth in the second one, at least it was for me, but okay. How involved do you want to get? You know, uh, do you really want to serve? You really want to honor God with your, uh, what you do and what you do with your life. And, uh, that takes a while, you know, cause you're not quite sure what goes on. And, uh, as time went on, I found that God did in fact provide opportunities, uh, many times in situations where, uh, my previous career might've played a role in, uh, being able to do it. But more times than not, it was, it was in things that I'd never, I had never done. Uh, and I, and I got this feeling that he was, God was kind of providing me as opportunities and pushing me out into uncomfortable zones in my life. Uh, but it gave me an opportunity to say, okay, God, I'm, I don't know, I don't know what I'm going to do here. I'm not quite sure what this is all about, but I'm going to trust you. And as I stepped out in these more uncomfortable situations, uh, my faith grew because he came through virtually every time that I found myself in those situations. That's that. Let's talk more about this because I think this from where I'm sitting, hearing that, and I'm sure a lot of listeners, when we get, um, when we come up against the unknown, like there are very few people I know who like the unknown. And most people are scared to death of it. But how did that tell me? It'll just maybe a little more detail about that process. Yeah. Because I think, you know, when you feel like, boy, you're getting called to something that is outside your comfort zone or you're like, could I just sort of like, for me, I'm like, could I just have a little peek around the corner, like a little telescope. And when I see that looks like pretty good, then maybe I'll throw into it. But I don't know about just sort of jumping in the pool. Like, so it just sounds like a little, like a step-by-step building of the trust. Is that kind of the. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I kind of come to the conclusion that, you know, the easy thing that when these opportunities came up, you know, the easy thing to say is no, because I don't, I don't feel comfortable. I'm not, you know, I'm not gifted in that area, you could say. And, and I learned early on that, you know, if you want to really define your purpose and be used by God and more importantly to honor God, you know, you should be saying yes more than you're saying no. And, that's kind of what I tried to stick with, you know, as my faith grew and, you know, I mean maybe a little example of that is when, as I mentioned before, when our daughter died, my wife and I, some months later we're talking and we said, you know, God says that he can use all things for good in Romans 828 for those who put our faith in him. And I remember saying, now, what the hell are we going to do with this? What could we possibly do with this? And, and then about a month later, I was talking to a neighbor who had just, her husband had just died. We were, we were friends with them. She was going to a different church and she said she was going to a workshop called grief share, which I'd never heard of, but it's a grief support workshop for people that have gone through the loss of a loved one. And I talked to the, hearing that I talked to my wife and I said, maybe we've got to think about something like that. And Dwell at the time or Xenos did not have a grief share program. So I spoke to the elders and they signed off on it. And thanks to the help of Katie, we started that and my wife and I served in that for about 10 years. So God did do something with that, you know, as, as miraculous as it was. And but I think that was just an example of kind of stepping out into the unknown, but using the experiences you've had to hopefully, hopefully help and serve others. Boy, those are some wise words, buddy. Yeah. Funny enough. My wife, when I mentioned I was going to do this, she was like, I went to, I remember your wife helped me. One of the classes too. Through the grief share when she lost her father. That was, was very impactful. Good. Yeah. So I heard you, Bob, sort of saying that same tune early on when you said, you know, I realized I wanted to really get after it with the Lord there later when getting, facing retirement and whatnot, kind of talked me through some of some of your journey kind of unfolded. I was a little slower getting going than Randy, but I was still in, I was still working when I started in the church, but it wasn't very long that I was working where I started in the church. I was working, you know, 50 hour weeks. And and that was my life. And when, when I, when that happened to me I was kind of lost. And then, and then I said, you know, why don't I find out about this church and see if this is where I should end up because I liked what was going on. And I had some of the qualities that that called for to work there from my job that I could carry over. And so, so I did that. And at the same time, I made friends with an attorney and a fellow that worked over at Salvation Army because I was going through a little hard time at that time with the alcohol. And so I went and I talked to them and they said, well, we're thinking of starting a ministry in that regard. And that, and they did, they had a ministry going on maybe 10 or 12 people. So I joined them and I learned a lot. And but what I, and then I, and then I took that and got into the word and went, took the classes and took every class I could take and got on the servant team. It was all that was, all that was arranged by God, not by me. But, but I didn't have, I didn't have the heart. I didn't have the heart for that job, for that learning process at that time that would have helped me more. So anyway, what I did do is I worked hard. I got all those credentials. And then I helped, I joined that team and they left it and I've had, I ended up with it. And that has not only saved my life, but it's, it's brought so many people together in Christ that I couldn't number them for you. Wow. But the the ministry itself, uh, you can bring them in there. I can go in there. I go to that ministry. I can say, well, I used to read the Bible this much. You used to do that and you used to do that, but it's not that now it's understand what I'm reading. And when Christ says, uh, when, when the Bible tells me in Romans 12, one, uh, uh, uh, in view of his mercy, make your life a living sacrifice. And, and, and, and then I start reading on and I see Philippians two and three, uh, Philippians two, three, and four, and, and, uh, do nothing out of selfish ambition or, or, or, or conceit, but consider others better than yourself. And then I go on and I see, uh, all these other verses where, where Christ says, follow me. See what I do, do what I do, do what I do. And that's what I've been trying to do ever since then. And I, and I don't do it for me and I don't do it to, uh, make, make God happy. I do it because it's his instructions. And then what happens is you see the joy, you see what happens when you serve other people. So my life is, is given to other people right now. And, and when you serve other people and you see the joy they get because of their marriage restored or their child okayed and out of the hospital or whatever it is, it's a whole new ballgame. The joy in that is so incredible. You can't explain it. And that's what happened. That was a changeover. It wasn't, it wasn't, uh, it wasn't this prayer list. It wasn't, uh, anything I did. It was going to God and saying, show me what to do and then serving other people and watching God serve them when you did that. Give them the blessings that he's given you. And it's beautiful. And so that's what happened to me. I wouldn't change my ways now for anything. Uh, you know, I don't have, I'm not rich. I don't have all that stuff. But I wouldn't change a thing in my life right now. Uh, including this because, uh, I'm, I'm trying really hard to do what God showed me to do himself on the cross. And, uh, and, and in my own life and in my own marriage and in my own raising of my children, uh, it's just been incredible. I mean, I get so excited when I think of that and what people are going through in that ministry now and people struggling to get into their, into the, the place is 68, 60, 70 people every week. What's the name of it on a room? Never alone is the name of the ministry. And, uh, it just, uh, it overwhelms me. Now for me, it may be a big thing for other people, nothing, but, uh, but that's what God gave me. Well, no disrespect, but I would like to disagree with you that I think you are a rich man and you're rich and the, uh, eternal riches, which, uh, many never get to, unfortunately, understand what you're saying. Yeah. That is a beautiful, beautiful story. Yeah. I'd said, I'm sitting here looking at a rich man right here, buddy. Wow. So it's, you guys, you know, if I jump in here, just Bob hit on a, I think an important part there when he talked about marriage and, uh, I, I think when you become more involved, uh, walking in faith and your wife and I, your wife and you are linked in our, uh, in our faith. And my wife and I went through many years where we weren't, I wasn't a believer. It took me a long time. Uh, but, uh, ever since I retired, I have been even a little before I retired. And it's just been amazing to see, uh, now that we're on the same page, uh, spiritually, how that's really drawn our marriage, uh, closer and stronger. Uh, and as Bob said about understanding scripture, you know, one of the things we check in on once in a while is, uh, to see how we're doing with each other. My wife and I is, uh, it's awesome. First, first Corinthians 13 about what love really looks like. And, uh, that's, that's a fleeting subject in the world we live in. But I think Paul's instructions there is a really good, uh, litma test on how your marriage is really doing and how you're really connecting with each other. So that's been a tremendous by-product of, uh, retirement as well, you know, for us. That is also, yeah, boy, that you just, as you sit here and think about this, let's say you guys both decided, I'm going to take the relocation package and I'm going to double down and, you know, move to Tallahassee or whatever the company's offering, you know, a moving package, increase in salary, a car, just, you know, all the bells and whistles. I wonder what if I were interviewing you both right now, if you had taken that path, what this interview would sound like. It'd be completely different, I'm sure, at least on my part. Yeah. Yeah. No doubt about it. Yeah. So, uh, yeah. And those temptations are always out there. They're real, you know, they absolutely are. And, uh, uh, I'm just glad that, uh, God led me, uh, led me to, uh, Wayne and Rosie. And I got such good advice from Wayne, uh, to point me in a, the right direction. You know, I guess that makes me think about the importance of having close friendships and people that you, you know, you just don't share your, you know, deep things in your life with, with a stranger, but with time, sounds like you guys are both talking about, you've learned to sort of, you know, as you're growing in your relationship with Christ and the Holy Spirit's transforming your character. And it sounds like you guys have both talked about doing all these things sort of in the context of a, of a Christian community. Because that's the other thing that's hard for a lot of us is, you know, the Marlboro man and the Lone Ranger person. And I don't need anybody. I mean, I think a lot of people in our society, they groom you for that. I mean, that's like a, uh, that's like a really important thing. And so, um, yeah, I think that, uh, that's, that's pretty important. So what I'm hearing both of you guys saying, it sounds like that a lot of these decisions and the character transformation and the decision to, you know, walk with Christ and actually read the Bible, you know, not as a thing to chuck off your list, but to grow a close friendship with God and you do that in a community of people, then you'll have the opportunity for somebody if they see like, boy, let's say you have, you know, some habits at work that aren't healthy for your family that, you know, somebody might say, Hey, I've been observing something, buddy. Um, would you be interested in hearing some input? Um, when I know someone who loves me and cares about me starts a sentence like that, I know a, I don't want to hear it, but B I should hear it. Yeah. And it sounds like you guys have both invested in friendships and relationships to be able to have, uh, like this, uh, you know, this, uh, with Wayne Talarczyk, it sounds like he's had, uh, quite an effect. Yes. Wish we could call him. Yeah. I think, I think too. What would you say to him if you could call him today? Thank you. I'll double that. Yeah. But, but I think it's interesting. I would look back and we talk about friendships and so forth. I think it ties in a little bit more to the change you make with your identity coming off of a career versus becoming more, uh, more focused on, uh, serving God. Uh, and I often think, you know, when I was working, my friendships were pretty much with people that I worked with. And, you know, you always want to be with all the movers and shakers and, you know, everybody's, uh, on edge all the time because you want to get ahead, you know, and, uh, move, move ahead with your career. And when I made the transition into retirement, I look at the friendships I have now and they're so much more meaningful. And I think to your point, Brad, you know, I think it's not a problem being transparent and being honest with people and you don't have that. And, uh, I don't think you have it in a corporate setting or a career situation like you do in a Christian community. Yeah. That's, I've, that's been my experience. And maybe there are some businesses that are doing that, businesses that operate like that, but yeah, usually, um, it's more of, um, staying in step with, uh, like you say, opportunities to, uh, step on the person below you to get above there till they get the next job and next accolade. Uh, they throw more money at you, they clap your hands for you. And I'm telling you, it is very enticing. It is very difficult to say no to until like Bob was saying here, you get that taste and it just sounds like you really got, um, like something really got a hold of you there, which I just love. I keep going back to it. I was going to say, um, this, this transition, uh, doesn't happen overnight, but when it happens, it's so powerful. I can't even explain it. I, it's like, uh, you're reading Romans and you go to a commentary and all the commentary, everything. And you find a spot in Romans, it says something that hits you right between the eyes. And it's a fact that happened and this happened and that happened. And that's what caused me to be there. That's what, that's why I'm there. That's what caused me to be in that situation. And that is, that's so true. That's so true. And, and, and then what happens from that? That's the next question that we look at. And is it going to be good or are we going to punk? Are we going to fall on our fannies here? The thing is we, we take that because God gave it to us as a blessing and we take it and we run with it, our new ministry or whatever it is, and, and let him have it and give everything we got to it. And don't forget to be, do it in humility and don't forget to do it without selfishness and all that. You got to do that. But while I've seen people do that, I just am, I'm so amazed at how they grow and how fast they grow. I'm so amazed at how marriages are restored almost overnight from disaster, from absolute disaster when they're able to put that together. Yeah. It's so motivating. God is so good. Yeah. It just motivates you to want to keep doing more. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I know the, the, the verse, the breath, take another breath. Yeah. That we're, the, the verse about, you know, that God is able to restore those crops that the locusts have eaten. Like a lot of us, you know, I talked to a lot of people and people had a lot of regrets in their life and like, man, you know, I either work too much or, you know, you talked about some bumps in the road you've had and different things. And it's funny when you have a personal relationship with God through, you know, Jesus Christ and you have the Holy Spirit indwelling you to change it from the inside out. I'm hearing both of you guys saying that the thing, one of the biggest obstacles in your life or one of the most challenging things you came up against, the death of a daughter or an alcohol issue that God took both of those things which could have taken you totally out of the game and instead did the opposite of gave you a burden to say, man, what if I took what I've gone through here and help others navigate these difficult things? Yeah. I mean, what a great motivator. Really, really, that is just beautiful. That's the, what do they call it? The backwards wisdom of God. It's just crazy that I'm hearing you both say also, just sitting here listening that I think you're both convinced that it's more blessed to give than to receive. You're talking about other centeredness. I'm hearing other centeredness from both of you. If I'm taking notes, I hear humility. I'm hearing get out of the way and listen maybe to God more than talk. Yeah. And how, how has, how has that sort of transpired through the years for you guys? That's the big step is getting out of the way of your hesitation, your hesitation thinking that, you know, if I do this, God will do this. Get that out of there. Yeah. I think it has a lot to do. I mean, for me, it was more what your pace of life is, you know? Cause it's easy to just function through by going from one ministry or another or one situation to another and not really, you know, step back and look what God's doing in those situations. And, and I think one thing it's taught me is to, you know, slow the pace down a little bit more than I was used to when I was working, you know, which was go, go, go. And that's really helped me to see and understand, you know, what, what God's doing and, and getting involved in other ministries, particularly in missions, for instance, you know, to have the privilege of getting more involved in that area and really seeing what God's doing, you know, more on a macro level than just your little home church or whatever. It's really exciting. And again, it just reinforces your faith that God's at work, you know, in all situations. Yeah. When we, when you're both saying, you know, when you sort of open your hands up and take your clutched hands off the wheel a little bit, as God woos you to trust him more. And perhaps he does have more wisdom than us. And when we get some gray hair, we probably have a few more, a more of a propensity to listen to that and actually act on it. But yeah, the, I've, I can attest to the missions thing. In my career, I get to be blessed to go to Africa and Cambodia and Ecuador to give people free eye care. And we go along with someone who also explains the love of God. And what a great way, I'm just getting little sort of visions here and you guys thinking, boy, I could do more and more of that if I retired and I'm freed up for, with that. And again, I want to make sure that I'm not saying that you can't enjoy a hobby. You can't enjoy your grandchildren. But I think it's like everything. I've been trying to, I've heard some wiser folks teach me. There's a thing in between. There's a, there's a fine line between a desire and an over desire. And a lot of these things are good. But if we put the grandchildren or other things in first place, you know, that is sometimes when your life won't be as fulfilling as this joy that Bob is about to jump out of his chair when he's talking about loving these people and never alone and just gets inexplicable joy from that. I mean, that's what people are looking for. And man, you can spend a lot of time making a lot of money, uh, staying in a lot of hotels, being a road warrior. And I'm telling you when myself or other people have done that, you don't have inexplicable joy. You have exhaustion and what it makes you kind of look back and say, is this all there is? You know? Yes. Yeah. Well, you know, that's, that's the downside of it for sure. You know, but I, uh, you know, one verse that I've adopted as my, uh, kind of go-to verse, uh, as you know, I progress here in, in the Christian lifestyle is, uh, my favorite prophet, uh, Habakkuk in the old Testament, uh, where he gets frustrated with God and cause he doesn't think God's doing anything in that particular situation he's in. And God finally answers him and says, uh, you wouldn't believe what I am doing, even if I told you. So when I get into a situation where, uh, I can't really see clearly what God's got in mind, I tend to seize on that verse. And it kind of gives me the confidence that he's still at work. Yeah. Any thoughts on that, Bob? No. Ditto. Yeah. So, right. It's, it's, uh, I guess I'm trying to think when I've got, uh, you two here, boy, I wish I had like two hours to keep asking you questions. This is so good. But, you know, let's say that, uh, you know, a guy, uh, you're wanting to pass on some information and some wisdom to a man or a woman who is in that pre-retirement thing. They're thinking it through. Um, you know, what are, if you, how, what would you say to these guys? Um, and they've got, you know, they've, they've been living, um, physically responsibly. They've, you know, getting their house in order, so to speak, but they're trying to decide, boy, you know, uh, I'm kind of afraid to do this. You know, I'm thinking about this. How would you guys help somebody like start? Um, like where would you have them start? Cause I'm trying to really look at this and think, let's try to figure this out ahead of time. Just like everything. If you've got some time to contemplate and think through, it's much better than saying, I just figured out I need to retire tomorrow or the next day. That's probably not going to make your best decision. But, uh, you guys have any, uh, thoughts as someone who's entering into that process? You're doing the thoughts. I'm thinking, I'm thinking there should be an outline for a person to go to and make sure they're covering all the bases and they're thinking and they're processing of that decision. If it's, if it's a personal decision, if you're getting canned and then they're going to be retired. Correct. But if it's a personal decision, they should be going through a thought process. And they, and they, again, the only thing I can say is I went through that process before I was ready to go through that process way back. And, uh, and I, uh, I didn't retire, but that, that isn't the point. The point is I didn't analyze where I was with God, where I was doing in my life, where I wanted to be, how I wanted to be closer and have the joy that Christ showed we can have and, and all of that. And I didn't get into that, uh, till later, till later. But when I did, it was overwhelmingly joyful when I did get into that. So I would really recommend what you're doing is a great idea to get this out there on a piece of paper for people to think about these pro these programs and to make when they're 91 and make a decision when they're 61 instead of 91. Yeah. I think I, I think I would probably say, uh, you know, what the change has made in my life. I mean, to give them kind of a template for what it could be. Uh, you know, and I, I think one's testimony, you know, goes a long, long way, even when you're talking about retirement, uh, to someone that has retired and has gotten more involved in, uh, uh, the Christian community. So, uh, I think that would be, uh, some good counsel. Uh, and of course, you know, to have them pray a lot about it and to make sure their spouse is on board with if there is a spouse, uh, on board with, uh, what they want to do with their lives after retirement. Everybody kind of being on the same page. Yeah. And I think that's, uh, pulling on the oars together. Good point. Yeah. Um, so what about, um, so we've got that get ahead of time. Um, one thing I really enjoyed as a young doctor and my, I was about 24 and I started practicing. Yeah, I guess that's right. Cause I'm 64 and, uh, I had a wonderful opportunity. I had a nursing home practice. So I would go out to different nursing homes and I would talk to so many people and I would, I've talked to probably hundreds of people between 95 and 107 years old. And I would just be intrigued by them. I'd walk in the room and I could pretty quickly, I would actually do an exam in their bedside. Like Marcus, well we had this little bag and all these little things and, uh, we'd start talking and boy, there would be people who would be in a tough spot, but they still had a joy that was bizarre to me. And I would say things like, boy, you know, you got a lot going on here medically and yet you're asking me how I'm doing. Like this is super uncomfortable for me. I should be asking you and come to find out a lot of these folks had a personal relationship with Christ. And that was very compelling to me as a young doctor. And I've never forgotten that. And I would always say to them, I'm always the guy who's trying to learn how to get ahead of the game of life in a good way. And I was like, you know, how about a young guy like me? Like, do you have any advice or any regrets, anything that you would watch? And one thing that a lot of people said over and over was, you know, I wish I would have said yes more to the things when I felt like God was offering me an opportunity to serve or do something. And I just thought that was amazing. You know, along those lines. Really? Yeah. Right. Because it's the thing that we're most afraid of. And I was like, did God ever really let you down? And they were like, and they'd all start crying. They'd say, you know, not really. And so, yeah, I think just hearing you guys and how old are you now? 91. So 91. So that's, that's, we're getting really blessed with some good wisdom here. And I'm 79. And 79. All right. You're 79 now. Getting up there. Any other, before we, before we end up or anything, any other thoughts that you would want to share with somebody? Or I just think your plan here is a great plan to put something out on this, whatever form it comes in. And I want to thank you for it. Yeah, absolutely. I second that. And I hope this maybe leads to a workshop or something for people that are you know, considering retiring and seeing where they might fall in the scheme of things in their Christian walk. And I think that's, it's very admirable. Well, it's a, it's a blessing to be with you guys. I'm sitting here, like so many thoughts are sort of running through my head right now, but yeah, you guys make me want to be motivated to not just rest in retirement, but to not downshift, but to say, you know, who was it Samuel when he says, you know, here I am, Lord, like put me in the game coach. You know, we could be like all these different folks, you know, you've got a gosh, who was it? Caleb said, give me the hardest, the hardest ministry there. And you've got, you know, different Old Testament characters where they're starting later in life. You got Anna who served in the temple every day, her whole life. You know, you got Paul who served until literally his last breath. So, I mean, what I'm kind of hearing here too, is maybe a retirement instead of being something that we're sort of dreading or scary, it could be the most amazing adventure ever, where I'm hoping that maybe my best days are ahead of me instead of, you know, I can get caught up in the nostalgia back to the good old days, but maybe we could learn, ask the Lord, how do we make the good old days ahead of us? Well, if you want to know, go to the closest nursing home and walk through it and see what's going on there. You're going to see people like this 24 hours a day, just sitting kind of stooped over in a chair, he's doing. And whereas if they'd read your book, they would have been out there working their butts off for the good Lord. Yeah. Well, I think there's absolutely nothing anybody can say that could top that. So we're going to end that on the amazing words of Bob there. So I appreciate you guys. I hope that, if you're listening to this out there, that maybe we, you know, made you think a little bit about retirement, maybe look at it from a different angle and, you know, looking at it through the Lord's lens and maybe our best days are ahead of us. So thank you guys. And what a privilege to be sitting in this room with you two. Thank you. God bless you. We've got a postscript with Rosie. Postscript. Yes. You got any thoughts? I am thrilled to get to be here in this room with Bob and Randy, who have been such wonderful friends and for so many years. And it's exciting. It's exciting to me to, to see the fruit of what started so long ago. And when Bob first came to home church, he couldn't wait to get out of there at the end of every home church. He booked right for the door at the end, at the end of every home church. And he became slowly able to become part of the family of our home church. And he helped my son in his ministry. And when Wayne died, he, he endowed me to Randy and Linda and they have truly shared in so much, including the Cambodia ministry that we're part of. And what turns out to be exciting, isn't the stuff I thought would be. It's, it's like Bob said, it's seeing the fruit and decades of fruit after retirement for these men. And so it's been a pleasure to watch what God has done.